Comments on: TxDOT’s Latest Passenger Rail Plans Steer Clear of Houston http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/ Houston, Texas real estate development, home buying, landscape, and design Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:55:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: dbhouston http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-300919 dbhouston Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:41:26 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-300919 I like how the DoT logo looks like a hurricane bearing down on Georgia. I like how the DoT logo looks like a hurricane bearing down on Georgia.

]]> By: TheNiche http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-298723 TheNiche Sat, 20 Oct 2012 04:13:46 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-298723 People should not use the word "stupid" twice in a seven-sentence rant, or especially as a single-word sentence. Such weak rhetoric is the pot calling the kettle black. People should not use the word “stupid” twice in a seven-sentence rant, or especially as a single-word sentence. Such weak rhetoric is the pot calling the kettle black.

]]> By: dd http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-298664 dd Sat, 20 Oct 2012 02:47:57 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-298664 Great just another way Houston is getting left behind!!!! What rich person is stopping this from happening? How stupid does this map look? Stop at Galveston? Stupid. Everyone hates Houston traffic. Why r we not fixing it? Great just another way Houston is getting left behind!!!! What rich person is stopping this from happening? How stupid does this map look? Stop at Galveston? Stupid. Everyone hates Houston traffic. Why r we not fixing it?

]]> By: luciaphile http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-298472 luciaphile Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:15:54 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-298472 Once I rode the Amtrak train from Austin to Dallas, accompanied by some Mennonites who had come down to help out after a tornado and a bunch of people who were planning to drink too much to drive to the TX-OU game. It seemed nice and I thought, why don't business travelers use this? When we pulled into Dallas nine-and-a-half (!) hours later, I had my answer. In Austin, admittedly, time is perhaps not money in quite the same way it is in Houston, but I think many people here would gladly take the passenger train to Dallas if it had a dedicated track and the trip took only a little less time than a car. 3 hours is the time to beat. I don't think this requires maglev technology. I know I would be happy never to see the Jersey barriers on I-35 again. Once I rode the Amtrak train from Austin to Dallas, accompanied by some Mennonites who had come down to help out after a tornado and a bunch of people who were planning to drink too much to drive to the TX-OU game. It seemed nice and I thought, why don’t business travelers use this? When we pulled into Dallas nine-and-a-half (!) hours later, I had my answer.
In Austin, admittedly, time is perhaps not money in quite the same way it is in Houston, but I think many people here would gladly take the passenger train to Dallas if it had a dedicated track and the trip took only a little less time than a car. 3 hours is the time to beat. I don’t think this requires maglev technology. I know I would be happy never to see the Jersey barriers on I-35 again.

]]> By: CJ http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-298328 CJ Fri, 19 Oct 2012 17:40:57 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-298328 Comparing Houston & Dallas to Barcelona & Madrid using population & distance between them as your only metrics is all well and good, but I'd say there are a few more factors to consider. . For example, geographical area and population density might be useful, not to mention urban design & walkability. . Putting a rail line between two Texas cities that are "designed" exclusively for cars doesn't make quite as much sense as putting a rail line between two European cities that have exceptional public transportation systems and places (public squares, parks, streets) that you actually want to spend time in. Comparing Houston & Dallas to Barcelona & Madrid using population & distance between them as your only metrics is all well and good, but I’d say there are a few more factors to consider.
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For example, geographical area and population density might be useful, not to mention urban design & walkability.
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Putting a rail line between two Texas cities that are “designed” exclusively for cars doesn’t make quite as much sense as putting a rail line between two European cities that have exceptional public transportation systems and places (public squares, parks, streets) that you actually want to spend time in.

]]> By: TheNiche http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297807 TheNiche Fri, 19 Oct 2012 04:02:26 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297807 That's funny, I was also citing metropolitan area populations from Wikipedia. Looking them up again, I'm finding that Barcelona is 5,083,000 and Madrid is 6,489,660. The Madrid figure I saw previously was something like 3.5 million, which is about the same as the municipality, so I'm guessing that somebody grabbed it and put it in a table with metro areas. I suppose that I have to partially concede. However, your population estimates on the Texas cities are also significantly off. DFW is about 6.63 million and Houston is about 6.22 million. As for GDP, does that include transfer payments from Germany? ;) No seriously, it looks like they slipped to #26 to #30 range right quick, depending on how you measure GDP. I also grabbed the train and air passenger data from Wikipedia, which was conveniently just about as out-of-date as most other transportation statistics. So everything I'm citing is from around 2008 or 2009-ish. There is a difference between the speed that a technology is designed for and what it actually operates at on average along its route. I'm going to have to eat half a crow on this one too, because I got the Spanish average right, at about 146mph on average, but I tried to compare to the 150mph "operating" speed of the Acela even though the average speed on a more in-depth review is only 70mph. That is a significant error. Having said all of this, I think that there is still a legitimate question as to what is prompting the extraordinary amount of travel (both air & rail) between Madrid and Barcelona. Obviously it is something that makes that route globally significant in the rankings in a way that Houston-Dallas is not. That’s funny, I was also citing metropolitan area populations from Wikipedia. Looking them up again, I’m finding that Barcelona is 5,083,000 and Madrid is 6,489,660. The Madrid figure I saw previously was something like 3.5 million, which is about the same as the municipality, so I’m guessing that somebody grabbed it and put it in a table with metro areas. I suppose that I have to partially concede.

However, your population estimates on the Texas cities are also significantly off. DFW is about 6.63 million and Houston is about 6.22 million.

As for GDP, does that include transfer payments from Germany? ;) No seriously, it looks like they slipped to #26 to #30 range right quick, depending on how you measure GDP.

I also grabbed the train and air passenger data from Wikipedia, which was conveniently just about as out-of-date as most other transportation statistics. So everything I’m citing is from around 2008 or 2009-ish. There is a difference between the speed that a technology is designed for and what it actually operates at on average along its route. I’m going to have to eat half a crow on this one too, because I got the Spanish average right, at about 146mph on average, but I tried to compare to the 150mph “operating” speed of the Acela even though the average speed on a more in-depth review is only 70mph. That is a significant error.

Having said all of this, I think that there is still a legitimate question as to what is prompting the extraordinary amount of travel (both air & rail) between Madrid and Barcelona. Obviously it is something that makes that route globally significant in the rankings in a way that Houston-Dallas is not.

]]> By: Elix http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297781 Elix Fri, 19 Oct 2012 03:21:08 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297781 For somebody who seems to know everything, where did you get that Madrid and Barcelona are significantly smaller than Houston and Dallas? Relatively poor I don't agree but that's a little less black and white. For somebody who seems to know everything, where did you get that Madrid and Barcelona are significantly smaller than Houston and Dallas? Relatively poor I don’t agree but that’s a little less black and white.

]]> By: shadyheightster http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297729 shadyheightster Fri, 19 Oct 2012 02:05:46 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297729 @TheNiche: I didn't footnote my research, but the Spanish air travel stats are from EU aviation agency, and the US stats are from the June 2012 DOT stats. Train travel stats are in numerous articles a Google search away. Actually the populations of the cities are very well aligned. Metro Madrid has 6.5 million people, and metro Barcelona is 4.5 million according to Wikipedia. Dallas has about 6 million metro and Houston has around 5.1million. Also, though Spain has a bit lower GDP than the US, it is not "relatively poor". The Spanish economy is the 14th largest by OECD stats, with a per capita GDP of 32k and only 2.3% below the poverty line. Before the high speed rail went in, it took 6 hours to travel by rail or drive between cities. By cutting that in half, rail captured market share despite charging higher prices. Lastly, the Acela never hits more than 140 mph, and only on short stretches. The AVE in Spain travels at 186mph, and in short stretches now hits 205mph. My only point is that high speed rail could actually attract passengers, and plenty of them, if it were a reality here. @TheNiche: I didn’t footnote my research, but the Spanish air travel stats are from EU aviation agency, and the US stats are from the June 2012 DOT stats. Train travel stats are in numerous articles a Google search away.
Actually the populations of the cities are very well aligned. Metro Madrid has 6.5 million people, and metro Barcelona is 4.5 million according to Wikipedia. Dallas has about 6 million metro and Houston has around 5.1million. Also, though Spain has a bit lower GDP than the US, it is not “relatively poor”. The Spanish economy is the 14th largest by OECD stats, with a per capita GDP of 32k and only 2.3% below the poverty line.
Before the high speed rail went in, it took 6 hours to travel by rail or drive between cities. By cutting that in half, rail captured market share despite charging higher prices.
Lastly, the Acela never hits more than 140 mph, and only on short stretches. The AVE in Spain travels at 186mph, and in short stretches now hits 205mph.
My only point is that high speed rail could actually attract passengers, and plenty of them, if it were a reality here.

]]> By: TheNiche http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297641 TheNiche Thu, 18 Oct 2012 23:49:22 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297641 Ummm...yeah, something is not right about that Madrid-Barcelona analysis. How do two cities in a relatively poor country, each of them significantly smaller than either Houston or Dallas, start out having the world's busiest air route? And post-rail, their air passenger volume is still a fair bit higher (3.5m) than the Houston-Dallas air passenger volume (3.0m). Meanwhile, the Madrid-Barcelona train carries right at about as many passengers as the entire Acela Express route from Washington D.C. to Boston, even though there are about five times the number of people in cities served by the Acela, and even though the trains travel at about the same speed. I cannot tell why, but clearly the Madrid-Barcelona pair is an outlier where the volume of intercity travel is concerned, and the lessons do not translate well to the United States. Ummm…yeah, something is not right about that Madrid-Barcelona analysis.

How do two cities in a relatively poor country, each of them significantly smaller than either Houston or Dallas, start out having the world’s busiest air route? And post-rail, their air passenger volume is still a fair bit higher (3.5m) than the Houston-Dallas air passenger volume (3.0m).

Meanwhile, the Madrid-Barcelona train carries right at about as many passengers as the entire Acela Express route from Washington D.C. to Boston, even though there are about five times the number of people in cities served by the Acela, and even though the trains travel at about the same speed.

I cannot tell why, but clearly the Madrid-Barcelona pair is an outlier where the volume of intercity travel is concerned, and the lessons do not translate well to the United States.

]]> By: TxRailFan http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297601 TxRailFan Thu, 18 Oct 2012 22:42:24 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297601 Rail! Car speed at Airline price! Sounds great. Rail! Car speed at Airline price! Sounds great.

]]> By: John (another one) http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297598 John (another one) Thu, 18 Oct 2012 22:33:13 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297598 I used to more or less commute to Dallas and I would have been thrilled with a train, as would my many coworkers doing the same thing, all those people I saw on I-45, and all those people queuing up for Southwest flights. I could have actually used that time to do something useful as opposed to driving or being interrupted on a plane trip every 45 minutes to wait in a different line, board, get off, get a car, etc. I expect it won't ever happen because Southwest Airlines would have a cow over it. I used to more or less commute to Dallas and I would have been thrilled with a train, as would my many coworkers doing the same thing, all those people I saw on I-45, and all those people queuing up for Southwest flights. I could have actually used that time to do something useful as opposed to driving or being interrupted on a plane trip every 45 minutes to wait in a different line, board, get off, get a car, etc.

I expect it won’t ever happen because Southwest Airlines would have a cow over it.

]]> By: rental me this http://swamplot.com/txdots-passenger-rail-plans-steer-clear-of-houston/2012-10-17/#comment-297575 rental me this Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:57:21 +0000 http://swamplot.com/?p=48613#comment-297575 Communist ploy or not - if the train has decent leg room and doesn't charge an extra $50 to bring a suitcase, I'm all for it. Communist ploy or not – if the train has decent leg room and doesn’t charge an extra $50 to bring a suitcase, I’m all for it.

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