COMMENT OF THE DAY: PRICED OUT OF THE CONVERSATION “The fact that ‘many’ people think the Heights is overpriced is meaningless – if other people besides yourself think that home prices in the Heights are spot on and actually buy the homes, it doesn’t matter what everyone else thinks. For the record, the way you feel about the Heights is how I feel about West U. I think the neighborhood is completely overpriced and I would never pay the going rate for West U. But – clearly, many people disagree with me, as those houses continue to fetch what I consider to be ridiculous prices. I can argue as long as I want that West U is overpriced and I can take my money elsewhere, but all that means is that I’m clearly out of step with hundreds of people who feel differently.” [LT, commenting on Swamplot Price Adjuster: The Heights of 2-2ness]
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“if other people besides yourself think that home prices in the Heights are spot on and actually buy the homes, it doesn’t matter what everyone else thinks”
jesus, and just two years ago i would have never thought i’d see people talking like this so soon again.
let’s not forget that everyone’s tax dollars are still being spent on bailing out/fixing up the housing market in this country. it’s perfectly natural for people to be wary of unsustainable property values and try to call them out in this day and age. i’d imagine that if you look at the increase in values in the heights/neartown areas compared to the increase in wages/inflation in the houston market over the past 7 yrs that it would indeed scream “it’s a bubble”.
however, there is also a sizeable wage gap that continues to expand in this country. with that it’s quite likely we’ll see properties in the popular areas of Houston continue to far outpace standard wage growth but not necessarily be a “bubble” because it is sustainable by a certain socio-economic group.
although i do think people are paying too much for the heights right now i think the prices are still sustainable as long as the oil industry can manage to start growing again. west u is of course one of those parts of town that doesn’t have to make sense because there is a status that is attached to it.
Just wait, maybe you can get a well priced condo in that highrise they are building towards West U…
All around Houston is cheap…paying for a mortgage for a $350k property with 20% down and a 5.5% is about $1500 a month I had a night out that was more.
Don’t they still have open street storm sewers in parts of the Heights?
Maybe one reason that people like West U and Southside Place is that they are zoned and have active code enforcement in place and have excellent response times for police and are centrally located. If one spends a premium then one gets some protection that, unfortunately, is missing in many parts of Houston.
JT says:
“excellent response times”
“If one spends a premium then one gets some protection”
My analysis:
Giant Rottweiler –
premium: $500
response time: 3 seconds
12 ga. –
premium: $300
response time:
variable (but better than the police department)
yes, well maybe if the rich folks weren’t all moving to enclaves to spend their tax money on each other the rest of houston may have better protection as well.
Why shouldn’t the “rich” live wherever they see fit? If they want to pay a premium not to
have a bunch of cantinas behind their house or a string of rundown apartments or looming townhomes blocking their sun more power to’em. It isn’t “their” responsibility to live in COH just so you can have better paved streets. Why not fault our forefathers for the massive annexation policies that really only spread our physical and financial resources so thinly.
The biggest difference between West U and the Heights is schools. You must pay a premium to live in West U to have access to the better schools.
Tex38, West U is still in HISD, just like the Heights. The only reason the schools might be better there are more parent involvement and fewer kids from poor families. The elementary schools in the Heights are actually good. Harvard and Travis are outstanding, while Love is very good and Sinclair better than average.
yes, well maybe if the rich folks weren’t all moving to enclaves to spend their tax money on each other the rest of houston may have better protection as well
If not to move away from bad area then what would be the point of being rich?
Wow! I never thought I’d be the comment of the day!
My point is that all of the discussion on the Price Adjuster about how one neighborhood is overpriced and how people can “vote with their feet” is sort of a silly academic argument if the people who are saying that are not the target buyers. When people say, “The Heights are too expensive! I can buy double the square footage in Detroit for one third that amount,” it’s basically meaningless because they aren’t the ones determining the market.
houston is not a dangerous city except on the roads and in the ghettos. there’s tons of great parts of town that aren’t west u, bellaire, or piney point. obviously i don’t know what kind of arrangement these places have set up with the city to not get annexed, but in the absence of any detailed information one naturally assumes they’re paying a lower tax rate than those that live in the greater houston area.
it’s not about being able to afford to pay premiums for better living, but about paying the same share as everyone else.
their propety taxes may well be higher than houston’s and i could be wrong so i would certainly be interested in seeing that kind of information.
Joel – to see what people pay for property taxes, just look on HCAD. If you pull up a house in West U (or Bellaire or Piney Point), it will say the tax percentages. When I’ve done in this in the past, I found that West U paid slightly lower property taxes than the City of Houston. This is a fun party game to play with West U dwelling friends who sumgly complain about all of the taxes they have to pay to live the way they do. :-)
d says, “Don’t they still have open street storm sewers in parts of the Heights?”
….
The ‘open storm sewers’ are actually wildlife habitat. We have gotten good crawfish yields out of our drainage ditches during especially wet springs.
Well played, Mies!
I prefer “ditches” to “open street storm sewers” and they are also an excellent play area. You would be amazed at how many hours small children can spend jumping either themselves or their toys over the ditches. The slightly fuzzier demarcation between street and sidewalk also tends to result in lower traffic speeds based on my obervations here which is another plus.
As the Mayor of West U and with my daughter having just purchased her first home that is located in the Woodland Heights, I read with interest the comments on the market values/sales prices of homes in the Heights and West U. I have lived in West U over 35 years and have seen the homes here go through several transitions. Just about when I think I have seen the last such transition, another one starts. When my wife and I first purchased our 1941 home in 1975 (which we still live in and have added on to and remodeled several times), we also thought the prices here where excessive. But, we loved the old home’s charm and living close to downtown where we both worked. That home is now worth many times what we paid for it and what we have put into it. I see many similarities in the Heights now and when we bought in West U. Of course the Heights is not a separate city (which it used to be, but allowed itself to get annexed by the City of Houston), but it has within its power to keep its charm anyway. With my daughter buying in the Heights, I spent several months driving every street and looking at just about every home in the Heights. As such, I have become very familar with the Heights. It is my opinion that the home prices in the Heights will continue to increase (as will those in West U). Had I not believed so, I would have advised my daughter not to pay that “excessive” price she paid for her 2 bedroom 2 bath home in the Woodland Heights. Basic reason: We live in the 4th largest city in the US. Traffic is getting worst here every year (Metro as you have recently seen has really not come very far and rail service to the the areas outside the beltway is even farther away then it was under White. The Heights and West U are within a short drive to the Medical Center, downtown, Greenway Plaza, UofH, Rice, Minute Maid Park, Relient Center, and just about everything you would want to do in Houston. And, they are not making any more such land. My recommendation is that if anyone is even remotely thinking about buying a home, they should do whatever they can to get into the Heights or if possible West U. If that is not possible, then buy some where else inside or just outside 610 loop.
I would be more then happy to meet with anyone at West U City Hall for coffee and go into more detail. Just look be up on the West U website.
Yep, “they are not making any more such land.”
And given enough time, any parcel – even postage-stamp-sized & located in NE Houston – will deliver.
Hey Bob!
Can you say “Helicopter Parent”?
I moved to Houston on my own, (my father didn’t review my city, much less my neighborhood) in 1980. Moved into the Heights in 1988 (he didn’t help then, either) and seemed to have survived.
For crying out loud!
Vonroach
Can you say ” bitter much?”.
Seems rather nice that someone’s parent would show enough interest in them to help them out with their first home purchase-either with advice or finances. Better hope ol’ Bob doesn’t have the audacity to pay for his daugheter’s wedding or even wish her a Happy Birthday.
I grew up in West University in the 1980s and watched it change from a shabby lower middle class neighborhood to what it is today. I now live in the Heights,and the area is remarkably similar to the way West University was during my childhood. The similarities include everything from housing stock, neighborhood amenities, and eclectic mixture of residents. The location is also similar to West University, in that it is convenient to all of Houston’s major destinations. Mr Kelley’s prediction that the Heights will follow the same upward trend as West University is probably correct, and I think investing in the Heights is a wise move. As the Heights continues to improve, the demand to live in the area will continue to increase and real estate prices will reflect that. If I had more cash right now, I’d buy another house in the area and hold on to it.
I cannot fathom anyone describing West U as a shabby lower middle-class neighborhood unless they lived in the Weslayan/Bissonnet area although even that was never really shabby or lower middle-class. Just smaller bungalows and middle-class.
The areas east of Edloe, particularly along University and Rice and Sunset, were definitely upper middle-class and in some cases, definitely rich.
Personally I preferred the older West U before the “McMansions” arrived – it’s lost its charm to be honest. The charm replaced with “Yeeeeeeeehawwwwwww Lookie How Rich I Am” pretentiousness that rivals the pretentiousness of Southampton.
Pretentious people with nothing to be pretentious about except their money.
Although I will say the West U cops are still just as charming as they always were so I guess part of the charm is still there.
Personally I preferred the older West U before the “McMansions†arrived – it’s lost its charm to be honest. The charm replaced with “Yeeeeeeeehawwwwwww Lookie How Rich I Am†pretentiousness that rivals the pretentiousness of Southampton.
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Southampton gets bashed a lot on this forum – is it the physical structures that bother people or the residents? The houses themselves don’t strike me as pretentious at all – most of them are original homes that are nicely designed, seem to be well built, and are proportional to the lots on which they sit (personally, I think North and South Boulevard are two of the prettiest streets in Houston). There are few turrets, overflowing fountains, large Grecian columns, or any other architectural feature that would indicate a resident desperate to make more of a house than it really is (i.e. no one seems to striving to recreate Tara, Biltmore, or Monticello on a 5,000 sq ft lot). So I assume the supposed pretentiousness comes from the people who live there? Is that just based on the Ashby Highrise debate or is there more to it?
Matt Mystery bashes Southampton ad nauseum because he has no life and probably because he could never afford to live there unless it was in a garage apartment–or some matron thought he was a day laborer and gave him the brush off.
Southampton gets bashed a lot on this forum -is it the physical structures that bother people or the residents?
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I suspect it’s the residents. Some of whom have disturbed the previous “quiet serenity” of Southampton. Particularly with their tacky yellow signs.
North and South Boulevards are not in Southampton.
Matt Mystery bashes Southampton ad nauseum because he has no life and probably because he could never afford to live there unless it was in a garage apartment–or some matron thought he was a day laborer and gave him the brush off.
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Did I rattle your cage somewhere along the way? Poor baby.
Matt Mystery
Not really–you’re just an old gasbag with a bit of an obsessive/compulsive streak.
Not really–you’re just an old gasbag with a bit of an obsessive/compulsive streak.
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Not really – just someone who has little tolerance for people who are pretentious with very little to be pretentious about except how rich they are. Most of whom assume an intellectual air but manage to simply become intellectual trollops.
Matt Mystery – HAR seems to think that North and South Blvd are both Southampton – there are multiple listings on both streets where the subdivision says, “South Hampton.”
I’m not a realtor (nor am I an expert in Houston neighborhoods), but if North and South aren’t Southhampton, then what is?
Again – and I’m not trying to beat a dead horse here, but do you KNOW these people and therefore know that they are “intellectual trollops?” From the street, it’s hard for me to gauge pretentiousness, graciousness, or any behavior in between except by making some assumptions based on what is publicy viewable – which would be 1) choice of cars, 2) choice of architecture or 3) posted lawn signs. The architecture does not strike me as pretentious (certainly less so than in some other neighborhoods I’ve seen) and I personally have not seen any yard signs that would give me an indication one way or the other of the thought processes of any of the residents, other than the occasional sign protesting the highrise, endorsing a political candidate or supporting a school.
So I guess my question is – what exactly about this neighborhood do you hate so much? Do you feel that same way about other neighborhoods inside the loop or just this one?
Again – and I’m not trying to beat a dead horse here, but do you KNOW these people and therefore know that they are “intellectual trollops?â€
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Actually that is how a friend of mine, who lives in Southampton, described them. Who lived in Southampton before it became pretentious.
As for HAR, well, HAR speaks for itself. As do many of its members. As do many of their listings. Some of which give new meaning to the word clueless.
North and South Boulevard are either Boulevard Oaks or Broad Acres. Bissonnet is many things as I recall. Depends on the block.
I’m not really sure what thoughts are considered intellectual trollopism, but spreading secondhand accusations of pretentiousness may be one of them.
South and North Blvds are in Broad Acres, within the Boulevard Oaks Community Association. Southampton is also in BOCA, as are many of the other areas around there.
Ah! Another person who remembers West U as a shabby middle-class area. Yes. Some parts of it were shabby in the early to middle 80’s. I remember one of my Rice classmates talking about his grandmother’s house on (I believe) University a block or two west of Kirby. One wall had collapsed or separated from the structure and she was living there with plastic sheeting closing in the opening. This was not right after a hurricane, either. If I remember correctly one of the reasons for the teardown boom in West U was the number of retirees being forced to sell their poorly maintained tract houses when their property taxes went up suddenly.
I’ve lived in West U since the ’70s. I think shabby is a bit of an overstatement. Yes, there were a handful of homes belonging to retirees that were behind in maintenance (and some of those still exist if you look hard enough) and a number of properties were for sale during the oil bust, but the neighborhood was always an attractive place with residents that cared about it. I have nothing but fond memories from growing up here. I don’t know that I would normally agree with Matt, but overall, I also think West U was a much nicer place to live back in those days. Part of that is simply a change in our world and some of it is an over-concentration of people that believe their own hype. These are people that have been told their entire life that they’re better than everyone else and while that works well in creating a top notch CEO or litigator, it rarely creates a good neighbor.
I’m not really sure what thoughts are considered intellectual trollopism, but spreading secondhand accusations of pretentiousness may be one of them.
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I believe it was more an observation than an accusation…
These are people that have been told their entire life that they’re better than everyone else and while that works well in creating a top notch CEO or litigator, it rarely creates a good neighbor.
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It’s called Southampton Syndrome…
Ok Matt Mystery, now I know you are just being tongue in cheek – you really haven’t explained your animosity for Southampton, so I think you are just teasing at this point. If we are talking about neighborhood where kids are growing up with a sense of entitlement, Southampton would NOT be at the top of the list (River Oaks, Tanglewood, Briar Grove, Memorial, the campus of Episcopal High School would all rate higher than Southampton).
Ok Matt Mystery, now I know you are just being tongue in cheek – you really haven’t explained your animosity for Southampton, so I think you are just teasing at this point. If we are talking about neighborhood where kids are growing up with a sense of entitlement, Southampton would NOT be at the top of the list (River Oaks, Tanglewood, Briar Grove, Memorial, the campus of Episcopal High School would all rate higher than Southampton).
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There is pretentious. And then there is pretentious. The really pretentious, and the really rich, some of whom are bred to be pretentious and carry it well, tend to live in River Oaks or Tanglewood.
Now, I ask you, when have they had a temper tantrum and put up tacky yellow signs and equally atrocious banner signs and pulled the chain on a mayor who wants to be governor in order to have him pull strings and then get the city involved in a nasty, and expensive, lawsuit all to stop a hirise they didn’t want? Never.
Reality is hirise developers love River Oaks and Tanglewood. There are no temper tantrums. There are comments. Some nasty. But in the end, the voters have said no to zoning. And that’s it. Plus at some point they will no longer need 10,000 square feet. And will want to move. And yet stay in the neighborhood so to speak. And with all the hirises, well, they can. So they really don’t mind them. People who are bred to be pretentious usually are also very practical. Helps immensely if you also happen to go bankrupt. You survive. You learn you can be pretentious, and still carry it well, even with no money. You just get a post office box. You can live in the most dreadful of places. And no one knows because of course you don’t tell anyone where you live.
If you aren’t bred to be pretentious, you usually have nothing to be pretentious about. Even with money. And don’t carry it well. And some don’t carry it well. And have temper tantrums. And talk to mayors. People who are bred to be pretentious are , well, well-bred. And don’t talk to mayors. Or politicians in general. You send notes. You fax things. But you don’t talk to them. It’s like putting tacky yellow signs in your yard or banner signs on your walls and gates. You just don’t do certain things in life.
As for Memorial, it is understated. And never pretentious. Briargrove is for Tanglewood wannabes and so is a little pretentious. But they behave. Otherwise there’s no point in hoping to move to Tanglewood. They would be pariahs.
People are building homes on the campus of Episcopal High School? I didn’t know.
There is, I suppose, a faux pretentiousness at work in Southhampton. They’re pretentious with nothing to be pretentious about. Southampton Symdrome. And it seems to have spread. Just ask the customers of Hans Bier House.
No doubt Southampton Syndrome will become one of the great plagues of the 21st Century.
The pretentious of West U are not really pretentious. Just sort of overly impressed with themselves. And with their McMansions.
Tongue-in-cheek? Never.
Maybe it is just me but jeezus Matt Mystery you are one windbag without an off switch.
Could you possibly say the same thing another 100 times?
Matt Mystery – I was really hoping you were kidding in post #38, but now that I see that you were not, you’re scaring me a little.
Well what else would you call it? People who think because “they are” although no one is sure, really what, or who, they think they are, the rules and laws that apply to everyone else don’t apply to them are at best a little socially dysfunctional.
We do have a city charter. The city charter clearly states the city cannot regulate land use of unrestricted land.
They of course are not paying for the city to defend itself in the lawsuit. I suppose they believe the taxpayers owe it to them. For what, who knows. I guess because, well, again because “they are.”
I think Southampton Syndrome describes their pretentiousness quite well. Pretentious without nothing really to be pretentious about.
Fundamentals, people – that’s what gives you long term value. West U and the Heights both have them:
– Location – my commute from Norhill Heights to downtown is 8 minutes and if I don’t feel like driving I can hop on a bus (every 20 minutes) or ride my bike. That’s an extra 1-2 hours of my life *every day* that many of my coworkers lose. You can’t buy that back.
– Traditional, walkable street grid
– Deed restrictions to protect the overall character of the neighborhood. Put some teeth in the historic preservation protections and you will see the Heights do even better.
You can build great houses anywhere. If they’re out past Beltway 8, they become less value when someone builds even greater houses five minutes up the road. While any neighborhood will have ups and down, as long as Houston is a place people want to live, the overall trend for the Heights, West U, and other well-located neighborhods is likely to be up.